The News on Sunday: As someone who has seen the journey of women empowerment over decades, how do you look at the recent instances of harassment and violence against women?

Dr Arifa Syeda: I do not agree with this approach when we try to see things in different compartments -- of men and women. Attitudes do not change in small boxes; they change overall. The entire society is losing its sense of tolerance. I am saying it very carefully; otherwise I would have said we’ve already lost it. Tolerance is not something so philosophical that we cannot really understand it. It is when you give space to the other person. Let it be any gender, any strata of society. I do not create any line of demarcation.

TNS: When you say we have lost the sense of tolerance, does that mean that we were tolerant before?

AS: Yes, we were much more tolerant before. We had spaces for others; if we didn’t, we would create spaces for others. I am not talking of gender. This is an overall thing.

To me, it is a part of power paradigm. One is powerful and one is not that powerful. Under this paradigm, the more you insult others, the more powerful you become. You have to see how one political leader addresses his opponent -- insult, insinuation, threats. It is the same kind of aggressive attitude. What Hafiz Hamdullah has done has put us to shame and shame is no word really -- it’s almost a sexual assault. We have no respect for others.

You’re using Islam either as an apology or an exploitative force and Hafiz Hamdullah is the best example. If you read the Holy Quran, to me it says that the most successful are those who face challenges and then come out of it. It is the crux of an Islamic society, a moral society.

TNS: What needs to change and how? There have been laws but there is no implementation.

AS: I would say just one word -- attitudes. Laws do not change anything.

TNS: What will bring that about, education?

AS: Education, yes. But education does not mean formal education. It does not mean a certain syllabus. And then people like us are also to be blamed. People who believe in certain things should speak up. But the problem is that the society has turned us into paranoids.

TNS: What should be the role of the political parties? Have they played their role?

AS: Not at all. Political parties only play power games. You see faces of women in parliament but they are not empowered. They become her master’s voice. The funny thing is that the political parties, whether they are in opposition or in power, do not think about social priorities. They only think of how their party can survive.

Read also: No party to the women’s cause

TNS: The violence is justified in what can be termed a strange mix of religion and tribal customs?

AS: You’re right. There are three sources that are regulating the society in this country -- Sharia, constitution and customs. When it comes to women, the first two are silent and the only thing that prevails is tradition. Hafiz Hamdullah is one example. Why is he being defended? That he comes from a very powerful masculine tradition. To me it is horrifying that not a single leader, whether religious or political or anyone, has so far given a reaction against Hamdullah.

So, why do we keep going back to traditions? Because it is very easy to follow tradition; it is very difficult to implement a principle.

TNS: There has been a women’s rights movement in Pakistan. How do you look at it critically? What has it achieved and where has it failed? You have also been Chairperson National Commission on the Status of Women (NCSW). How do you look at it?

AS: It has achieved a lot in terms of legislation. A law is at least a guarantee. The society does not let it be implemented in letter and spirit but it is there to always fall back on. You must give credit to those women raising their voice despite opposition of every kind. [As chairperson NCSW] We wanted to repeal the Hudood Ordinance but the government never had the courage to do that. Very humbly, I take credit for the Women Protection Act, facing all the opposition from every mullah.

I am still hopeful because a woman at least has a guarantee of the law, though it is very difficult to challenge a society’s discourse. Yet, I think we have come a long way.

TNS: So do you think that the women’s rights movement has not made its mark because there is a very weak political system?

AS: Agreed. There is no equity and justice in your own basic political approach. But do give credit to those women who have raised their voice, who have stood up in the parliament, who had the courage to say things. But they are a numerical minority. These women in politics have the courage to speak and many of them have spoken. We are very angry now over America. But the truth is when you had a woman prime minister, when you thought of democratic equitable values, she was equally welcomed in the US, would get standing ovations. Today, when you have Hafiz Hamdullah treating a woman like that, who will listen to us? The political parties today are like monarchies. The only difference is that today the heir is not nominated; he is elected in the name of elections. It remains the same dynastic approach. It is again a sign of weakness.

TNS: How long do you think it may take for things to change for the better for women in our country?

AS: We will start changing the moment we wish to change. There is no timeframe. The future is looking weak. We don’t look ahead.