For Caroline Hancock, senior curator of modern and contemporary art at the Art Mill Museum; Aurélien Lemonier, curator of architecture, design and gardens; and Zarmeene Shah, director of graduate studies at the Indus Valley School of Art and Architecture, curating MANZAR: Art and Architecture from Pakistan 1940s to Today has been a journey of discovery, reflection and learning – or relearning. It hasn’t just been about selecting artworks but also about curating a story that reflects the rich and complex history of the region for a contemporary audience.

The show, running in Doha, Qatar, for three months (November 1, 2024–January 31, 2025), will showcase work from pre-partition days to modern-day Pakistan. Hosted by the National Museum of Qatar and organised by the future Art Mill Museum, the exhibition “brings together artworks by artists and architects currently living and working in Pakistan and its diaspora to present various perspectives on the country’s artistic and architectural movements.”

In this conversation with The News on Sunday, the curators discuss the challenges of putting together a multi-layered exhibition; the intersections of art and architecture; and the reasons to be hopeful about the future. Excerpts:

The News on Sunday: What inspired the creation of MANZAR? How did you develop the vision and the curatorial story focusing on Pakistani art?

Caroline Hancock: Our director, Catherine Grenier, decided that one of the key things to do was to pay attention to the communities living here in Qatar, as we needed to understand who our primary future audiences were going to be. Hence, it became important to research the cultures of the neighbouring countries and, for instance, the large South Asian communities residing here. Pakistan became the starting point for several reasons, one of them being that it's not as well-known on the international stage as others. Also, it is a country close to Qatar. It has been an incredible journey of learning and making decisions. We began in 2019, but then the Covid pandemic came along and slowed down some of the processes. Zarmeene Shah came on board last year, and that is when we really began in earnest.

TNS: How do modern and contemporary pieces in the exhibition interact? What do you hope the visitors will take away from seeing those side by side?

Zarmeene Shah: We are starting with the 1940s, just before independence. So, all the work is from the 20th and 21st centuries. I think this is an important story for Pakistan. It was important to include work from before independence to show that it did not just start in 1947. The land, the people, the culture and the artists were already there and working. The exhibition spans almost 80 years. It was a bit hard to do, but what we've tried to present various perspectives, concerns and dialogues that artists, architects and other creative practitioners have had during this time. Obviously, not every concern or every practitioner could be included.

CH: I guess for us, this is just a starting point. Perhaps it's useful to mention why we chose the title MANZAR because that's really indicative of our methodology in bringing this exhibition together.

ZS: Manzar means a scene, a perspective or a view. So it is one scene among many possible.

TNS: How have you approached collaborations between architecture and design? What impact do you hope this will have on the exhibition?

Aurélien Lemonier: The collaboration between design and architecture is significant. In Europe, for example, you no longer see artists and architects sharing the same space. Since we are talking about practice, it was natural for us to start by highlighting the extraordinary schools where architects and artists work together. Architects like Nayyar Ali Dada often speak about their mentors. This represents the kind of creative community we're discussing, where collaboration thrives. It’s like a ball, where everyone comes together. Another example is Yasmeen Lari. Aside from her architectural work, she was closely connected with renowned artists. In fact, her house features a large mural. This speaks of a community where architects and artists collaborate and support one another.

We explore design, architectural theory and the practice and position of the architect. When we look at the scope of the exhibition, it's not just focused on visual art; it embraces a multidisciplinary approach to creation. This is one aspect.

A second aspect is that architecture can sometimes offer a glimpse into the history of an institution, urban development and how cities manage their growth. For example, being one of the largest cities in the world, Karachi presents unique challenges. Architecture provides a strategic way to address these issues. Architectural drawings, in particular, help illustrate the context, offering insights that are challenging to convey but important to understand.

TNS: How does this exhibition contribute to meaningful conversations about art and identity, particularly in the MENASA region?

CH: This has never been attempted before. It's really encouraging to have new discussions based on extraordinary projects that have already happened over the decades. We anticipate that this will enable many other projects to occur and many interesting conversations [to begin]. The exhibition has enabled the Art Mill Museum to make certain acquisitions. Some of the pieces in the exhibition are now in the Art Mill Museum collection. They will find visibility in the future museum but in entirely different contexts. What we hope to achieve is to develop these stories in surprising new ways of narrating art history and revisiting the canon.

ZS: I also want to say something about your use of the word ‘identity’. Obviously, there is a very large South Asian and Pakistani population in Qatar, but it is also close to Pakistan. So, we also think of identity in a larger regional context; such as the Global South. These are important connections to make. It's important to make these kinds of connections within regions.

TNS: Bringing together so many diverse voices from Pakistan and its diaspora must have been challenging. What were some aspects of representing such a wide range of perspectives?

CH: I think we can say it was difficult to make the choices because this exhibition could have been put together in many other ways. Of course, there are three of us and the dialogue between us is a part of the formation of the exhibition, but then so many decisions along the way could have been made differently. The complexities included ensuring that it was possible to borrow important works from Pakistan. We are borrowing from extraordinary private collections, galleries and artists themselves. We're also borrowing from public institutions.

We have been very fortunate to get loans from the PNCA in Islamabad and from the Alhamra Art Centre in Lahore. That has been incredibly complicated. But also, accessing archives and documentation. We probably haven't described yet that not only is the architecture fundamental to giving context to the visual arts presented here, but we’ve also attempted to capture the history of Pakistan and various important moments. We’re very aware that many of our audience members will know nothing about Pakistan.

AL: The architects’ archives are very clear, but no one had taken care of this before. I was probably the first one to find the key to the records room in each office. So, this is just the beginning. I'm referring to the architects we worked with, Nayyar, Arif, Yasmeen Lari and Kamil Khan Mumtaz [among others]. I believe there is an extraordinary field of research here for Pakistan, for universities and for collaborations. These are great architects, and their work is important for Pakistan and the global architectural community. This presents an extraordinary opportunity for research. We were just at the very beginning of the process. So, we found what we could.

ZS: And I think diversity is important to mention. For example, we are showing work by artists like Zain-ul Abedin, who later became known as the father of Bangladeshi art. Or take Francis Newton Souza, who is now considered an Indian artist, but before these borders were drawn, there was a lot of movement. Even after Partition, there was significant movement in terms of ideas, people, friendships and influences. I believe that continues today, despite how things might appear. This dialogue, friendships and interactions still exist. So, the diversity we're showing is not just within Pakistan; it also highlights the fact that there are larger communities, movements, alliances and friendships that cross borders.

TNS: As curators with different perspectives, how did you collaborate throughout the process?

CH: We spent a lot of time on Zoom – too much, really. We’ve also been able to meet in different places; and we’ve made several trips to Pakistan. In a way, that’s the core of it – the moments together; meeting artists and architects; visiting museums and private collections; and having discussions. Of course, that took place over many different occasions throughout the months.

ZS: I guess three individuals will always have different approaches to anything in life. The key is to talk through those differences. Why would I, Caroline or Aureline have a certain approach? It’s because we believe there’s a reason why something should be done a certain way. By discussing these things, we’re essentially creating various decisions or methods for working together and making those decisions collaboratively.

AL: Again, it's teamwork. It's us, but it's not only us. There are three of us responding to you now, but in fact, it's more like ten. It’s a team effort. In any kind of teamwork, each of us brings our own singularity. Then we decide and discuss to form common ground.

We’ve had discussions – not polemic, but big discussions – because, for instance, the approach to history is different. For me, as a French person, history is more or less consensual, which [as we learnt] is not the case in Pakistan. So, we had to re-learn, to adjust our process.

There are two kinds of curators: those who know and those who don’t know. We are more the type who are happy to do what we don’t know and to learn along the way. It’s a learning process, and learning is connected to everything.

CH: There’s a lot of adapting to do. You're adapting to the space; to the galleries, and to the museum, in our case. We’re thinking a lot about the future audiences that will come to see this exhibition. It’s about considering the larger context as well.

We’re in a building designed by Jean Nouvel that has its complexities. Inserting this exhibition into that context has posed some interesting challenges. We’ve decided not only to work within the temporary gallery spaces but also in the courtyard – specifically the old palace courtyard that the National Museum embraces. So, you’re challenging the organisation that is hosting you while also working within it.

TNS: Could you share some memorable moments from curating this exhibition?

AL: For me, the discussion with the graphic designer was fascinating because we were challenging each other – [albeit] in a friendly way. This was the best way for me – and for us – to learn, because we were truly discovering it. To be honest, I knew a little about India and Bangladesh, but for me, this was a new experience.

I'm fascinated by the trust that people like Salima Hashmi, Quddus Mirza, Yasmeen Lari and Nayyar placed in us. It’s not just about the project itself but about building trust and being together. I'm sure of that.

ZS: Aurélien is referring to Kiran Ahmed, who is designing our catalogue. It is an over 300-page book. It's important to us because it includes valuable contributions from architects, artists and other intellectual and creative voices from across Pakistan and its diaspora.

The catalogue is significant because while the exhibition lasts only three months, the publication becomes a lasting historical document. It can serve as a reference book or a resource for students, researchers or anyone interested in art, architecture and creative fields in Pakistan. We don't have many historical volumes like this. That’s why it’s such an important part of this exhibition for us. We hope to launch it alongside the exhibition.

TNS: All the pieces featured in the book are going to be displayed at the exhibition?

ZS: Yes.

TNS: And there are about 200 to 300 pieces?

ZS: Yes, something like that. It's very difficult to give an exact count because we have everything from tiny miniatures to huge bamboo shelters. Calculating the total number can be tricky, especially when you consider a series of photographs by Arif Mahmood alongside sculptures by Shahid Sajjad. It’s complicated to count sometimes. We also have original archival materials; do we include those in the count or not?

AL: To give a rough figure, we have around 300 artworks and about 150 pieces of documentation. So, in total, we have about 500 items, both in the book and in the exhibition. The exhibition closely follows the book, although sometimes we may not have exactly everything we initially planned. But more or less, in terms of physical items, we are looking at around 500.

TNS: When it came to the design of the exhibition, what was most important to you in shaping how visitors experience the space?

ZS: The exhibition design is by Raza Ali Dada, who brings his own vision to the space. He has worked very closely with us to understand the stories we’re trying to tell and what we aim to achieve through the exhibition. So, it’s not just our vision; it’s also his vision for the space and the work, and how these elements shape the narrative and the overall experience of the exhibition.

AL: The strategy, nevertheless, was to say that the work is strong enough on its own, so the architectural design of the exhibition needed to be more natural. It’s about giving pride of place to the work itself. The design isn’t flashy or overly elaborate; it’s intended to bring out the full understanding of the work. For example, we have very precise lighting and delicate scenography to facilitate the viewing experience.

I’d also like to add something because Caroline mentioned that we have both indoor gallery spaces and outdoor spaces. For example, we’ve commissioned pieces by Omer Wasim, Amin Gulgee and Mariah Lookman that are immersive and allow you to experience the space as part of the artwork. Amin Gulgee has installed a sculpture called Charbagh, and Yasmeen Lari built a large bamboo pavilion. These give visitors the chance to experience the space itself, in contrast to just viewing a painting in a gallery.

So, we have a range of experiences—it's not just about looking at drawings or paintings but also about interacting with 3D installations and the space itself in a realistic, immersive way.

TNS: Are there any contemporary technology or interactive digital elements featured in the exhibition?

CH: Aurélien and Zarmeene have been conducting interviews over the past year in Pakistan with some of the most important figures, including architects, artists and art historians. Edited versions of these interviews are placed in various sections of the exhibition, allowing personal voices to come through. These are foundational voices that help expand the storytelling itself.

AL: We are talking about materiality – the materiality of the land and the materiality of the artworks. We are much more about the materiality of buildings, architecture and physical experiences. We are in the real world, on the ground, not in the digital realm. It could be, of course, but this exhibition is not.

TNS: How do you think this exhibition will shape the global understanding of Pakistani art and architecture?

AL: It's difficult to anticipate the reception of an exhibition. But you won’t find it in America and you won’t find it in Europe; an exhibition like this can only be found in this region.

To me, this is the beginning of something. We are exhausted; we’ve worked for two years and to us, it feels like an achievement. But for the museum and the audience, I want to present it as the start of something, not the end. It’s the beginning. That’s why it’s called Manzar. Every time we open a window, there are ten more behind it. Maybe we won’t be the ones to open those next windows. We wish to make it clear that this is just the beginning, paving the way for future researchers.

The interviewer is a staff member