Mushahid Hussain Sayed, politician, writer, journalist, intellectual and activist, has been a federal minister and member of the Senate. He is widely recognised as not only an expert on domestic politics but also a person with a keen eye for international relations. More recently, he has been an independent advocate for democracy and political stability in the country. The News on Sunday spoke to him about democracy and the current political situation in the country. Excerpts follow.

he News on Sunday (TNS): How do you see democracy in Pakistan over the past 75 years?

Mushahid Hussain Sayed (MHS): I believe that Pakistan is quite a unique country in that it is a product of democracy. It came into being under the leadership of a great political leader and statesman, Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, with the support of a political party, the All India Muslim League, upholding the Muslim community’s right to self-determination, and the ballot box. Democratic process was a key ingredient in the making of Pakistan. Democracy is, therefore, in its DNA. Jinnah rightly said: “Democracy is in our blood, indeed it is in our marrow.” The key elements of democracy are pluralism, respect for the rule of law and fundamental rights. Not only Jinnah but the Imperial Legislative Council also spoke up for the rights of Bhagat Singh, whom the British had condemned as a terrorist, even though Gandhi remained quiet on that. This is an important historical context.

TNS: But democracy has not fared too well in the country. What are the reasons for that?

MHS: For that, I blame the political class. At first, some of them believed that the road to Islamabad was through Washington. Now, they believe that it is through Rawalpindi. Since 2017 we have had seven prime ministers. We have had two soft coups: one against Nawaz Sharif and one against Imran Khan. On both occasions, the political opposition applauded the action. It may have been done in a constitutional manner but it was undemocratic. So we have had a kind of democratic regression in Pakistan because it seems that our political elite only talk about democracy; they don’t really believe in it. That is one reason. Another reason is that several political parties have become family parties.

TNS: Was there a hay-day of democracy in Pakistan?

MHS: We once had a Communist Party as well as a Jamaat-i-Islami. They were allowed to work on the left and right. It is all about political pluralism. We had prime ministers like Hossain Shaheed Suhrawardy and Feroz Khan Noon.

TNS: So what went wrong?

MHS: I think that after the death of Liaquat Ali Khan, a bureaucratic cabal took over. It consisted of the first informal Pakistani establishment. It included Iskander Mirza, Ayub Khan and Nawab Mushtaq Ahmad Gurmani. It dominated the ruling elite. They controlled the political process once the party that had campaigned for Pakistan - Muslim League–lost its two main leaders.

Then there was another period of free debate and coexistence in the 1970s. There was a very vibrant political culture. There were right-wing study circles, left-wing study circles and Marxist groups. Then the clampdown started after Mr Bhutto banned the National Awami Party and launched a military operation in Balochistan. This led to a military coup.

TNS: And which was the worst period?

MHS: I have lived through Gen Ziaul Haq’s dictatorship.I think that the media was freer then than it is today. I was editor of The Muslim during the strongest-ever military regime. The media then was freer than it is today. There were certain rules of the game. We dissented on the Afghan policy, we dissented on a lot of other issues, but I do not remember a journalist being picked up. Yes, journalists were arrested and tried by military courts. Some of them received lashings, but still there were rules to the game. I think that what we are seeing today is quite unprecedented.

Dictatorship is a mindset. Our ruling class, whether in khaki or mufti, doesn’t believe in democracy. They are intolerant. There is no real urge for coexistence among the political forces.

TNS: How do you see the expanding role of establishment?

MHS: I feel that some people’s definitions of dictatorship are inadequate. It is not about a uniform. Dictatorship is a mindset. Our ruling class, whether in khaki or mufti, doesn’t believe in democracy. They are intolerant. There is no urge for coexistence among the political forces. Today, several political parties are willing to support a military court trial of a former prime minister. This includes people who themselves were similarly exiled or jailed. So what has changed between 1977 when a political movement wanted a former prime minister eliminated and 2024?

TNS: Why have we been unable to defeat this mindset?

MHS: Well. Some people talk of elite capture of Pakistan’s economy and resources. There is also an elite capture of the political system. It is a hostage to big money and families with the famous feudal surnames. That is a problem. The political system is becoming more closed rather than open. The middle class has no role in it. You may not like it, but at least in India a chai-wala can become prime minister. I don’t agree with his politics -he may be a neo-fascist; he may be a Hindutva extremist -but he has won elections. And then there is Aam Admi Party in Delhi.

TNS: The military has had a large footprint in Pakistani politics. How did that come about?

MHS: In Pakistan, the military has a certain self-image. They used to say that the queen of England was the defender of faith guardian of the family silver. Our army sees itself in that role. It seeks not only to defend the country from foreign aggression, but also to guarantee the state’s stability. More space has been conceded to it now. The militaries in Turkey and Indonesia used to have a similar role. We still see this in Egypt and Myanmar as well. The political class has to, I think, get its act together.

TNS: Do you still have a hope for democracy in Pakistan?

MHS: I have faith and confidence that the democratic roots are strong among the people, if not the elite. Look at the February 8 vote. The people used their vote to express their views. This is what people can do. Even now you can see expressions of people power. There is a constant tussle. Things have not settled.

Look at Bangladesh; worse in a way than Pakistan because it became a one-party state, which Pakistan is not. It was a one-party state backed by India, the big brother, who is backed by the West and yet the people overthrew that. That gives you hope that people can rise; people can resist. In Bangladesh, there was rigging of elections, followed by repression, followed by resistance.

But one should be very careful. There is a thin line between people’s power and resistance. People have done it in the past. Ayub Khan’s dictatorship was overthrown by a popular movement. Shah of Iran’s dictatorship was overthrown by a popular movement. Haseena Wajid was overthrown by a popular movement.

TNS: What can we expect in the future?

MHS: We now have what I call a hybrid plus system. It used to be a hybrid and I coined the term ‘troika’ for it. It used to be the president, the prime minister and the army chief. In my view when the establishment becomes an equal partner, it is a hybrid system; it is hybrid plus when they become the senior partner.

TNS: What is the way forward to get out of this?

MHS: If the political class is willing to learn from its mistakes and willing to sit together; give space to one another and respect the popular mandate that is the way forward. Those who lose elections should not form governments. The people have spoken. I believe one day we will build a better tomorrow. This is a process. I hope to see it succeed in my lifetime. Insha Allah.

The interviewer is a staff member. He tweets at @waqargillani